Young, Gifted, and Not Getting Into Harvard -from Nytimes

nice article. i have to wonder what the academic landscape will be in 50 years. with growing population and a stagnant class size at elite universities, will more and more bright students "settle" for lower ranked schools? will the pool of elite schools and parity be expanded? will be be talking about top 20, instead of top 10?

A little prayer, sent into cyberspace:

Please, if ever I have children, let me remember that we are all different. That there are many ways to succeed. That reaching your potential doesn't require an Ivy-degree, doesn't mean you have to be a sports captain. That realizing who you are and where you want to go does not have to mean building your resume. And that even as you contribute to the world around you, become a leader, and develop your own intellect, you don't need Harvard to get you there. It might be nice. And if it works for you, that's great. But there are many, many paths. No matter what the Jones kids are doing.

As usual, well said.

Well said.

well said indeed

some comments:

1) I still don't get the article. Why is it that he's sure that those kids whose parents have done excellent jobs and have lots of accomplishments are still not getting in? Is it their SATs? Or is it that the writer will give them bad interview reviews?

2) The mention of 18 yr olds who prepare for interviews about the same or even more than what I did at almost 30 for B-school interviews amazes me. I think those kids will burn out before 25.

3) Agree with AAu's "pledge".

Cheers. L.

1. Its the competition. There are too many well qualified people with the credentials to get in. With the advent of globalization, getting into the schools are eveb tougher as now well qualified people (with the money) are able to apply for these top schools.

2. Well I can see the rigours involved. For example in India, to apply for the IIT Joint Entrance Exams, people start studying from their 8th standard. Often people also take additional correspondence courses to be competitive. It's not easy.

I've never really thought of undergraduate schools as being similar to business schools in terms of diminishing prestige and opportunities as you move down from the top.

If you could assign some sort of value to attending a given school for instance, let's say the value of attending an ultra-elite business school is X. Then maybe the value of an elite b-school is .6X, and then maybe the next cluster down it's .4X, and then the next couple of clusters are probably also about .4x. Whereas with undergrad I would think it would be a much smoother decrease, like top 10 schools the value is X, schools 11-20 the value is .9X, schools 21-50 the value is .8X, schools 51-70 the value is .7X and so on.

I suppose one reason is that the opportunity cost is so low for undergrads, and the difference in jobs available to someone from a top undergrad and a low-ranked undergrad is not as disparate as comparative opportunities for a top b-school and a low-ranked b-school.

So I guess this is why the article suprises me, do parents really care that much about getting their kids into Harvard? I would think even super-snobby over-bearing parents would be psyched if their kids got into any of the top 30 or so schools.

I agree with your point about the smoother transition between undergrad clusters.

There are many parents who obsess about getting their kids into certain schools, but I've found that to be a much bigger issue among certain immigrant/ethic groups (I apologize if that comment offends anyone).

Those who care about undergrad prestige do so because they believe that going there will open more doors and help them get into a better graduate program. Basically they start with best daycare for their kids hoping that at the end they will end up in the best law/med/business program. My co-worker went on a round of interviews for some daycare for his 2 yr. old son, I think he was wait-listed at the end. No wonder so many kids have problems these days...

dukes, coming from an immigrant family, i think you are right about immigrant groups being more concerned about their children going to top schools. i guess when parents make so many sacrifices to come to the country and support their family they expect some tangible results, and one of the most coveted is a harvard education.

I disagree. Opportunities for students at top undergrads and lower-ranked ones are in fact quite disparate. Top tier I-banks only recruit at about 20-30 schools, top MCs recruit at even less, etc. I graduated from a US News top 10 undergrad b-school at a top 50 university and had much greater recruiting opportunities in a bad year than kids I know at 3rd tiers now in a good year.

I disagree with you disagreeing.

Yes i-banking and some other industries are not available to people outside of top undergrad schools. But those are such a small percentage of the jobs that undergrads go on to fill. B-school students funnel into a much narrower set of industries.

So for the .05% of undergrads who want to go into i-banking, then it is probably important to go to a top school. But for the 20% or whatever the number is, of b-school studetns who want to go into i-banking, the choice of school is very important. And for the majority of the balance of b-school students, school name will be very important because many jobs studetns take coming out of b-school care about brand.

But for undergrads, where students go on to be teachers, musicians, engineers, chemists, writers, accountants, travel agents, policewomen, real estate agents, event planners, etc....they will all do very well for themselves going to a school like the University of Kentucky or Florida State or wherever. They can even have a decent shot at getting into a top business school if down the road they want to change paths.

I just don't see undergrad as being that important in the grand scheme of things such that parents should be freaking out if their kid doesn't get into a top 10 school.

Schools with similar ranking for both b-school and undergrad:

Top 5:
Harvard
Stanford

Schools ranked roughly between 20-25:
Georgetown
Emory
Notre Dame

Would you not say that the drop-off in prestige and opportunity is a little more pronounced for the business schools?

I'm completely with Johnny on this one. Also, some might even argue that you get a better education at the smaller schools.

My best pal from high school and I went to similar colleges: well-regarded, small, regional, liberal arts schools in the midwest. She is currently working on her PhD in astrophysics at Berkeley, but also did cool stuff during undergrad: internships at Harvard, Berkeley and NASA. As you can imagine, she's met lots of science geeks from all the top-notch schools. Although her school was small, her professors' emphasis was on TEACHING, and she benefitted so much from all of the mentoring she received. Some of her colleagues, on the other hand, talk about how hard it was to even get recommendations from their undergrad professors, whom they barely saw as they were passed from one TA to the next.

Yes, a fancy name might open some doors for you, but I don't think that "Small School U" is going to close many of those doors. Especially if you're worth your salt.

Many students who aim to attend elite undergrads not only wish to get a better job through campus recruiting (yes, you will find IB firms recruit graduates from Harvard and Stanford, Princeton who never attended one business related course), they are also hoping to benefit from the intangibles...meeting brilliant and ambitious kids from all walks of life who will become the top lawyers, doctors, architects, engineers, teachers , future Nobel laureates and gasp..politicians. To put it this way, it is a wonderful opportunity for networking and for some people, social mobility. I am not saying that students from lower ranked schools are not brilliant and ambitious, but it's just there is such a high concentration of them at the top schools.

From my experience, stronger and deeper friendships are formed during high school and undergrad years when we are more open to meet people without thoughts of ulterior motives. Students are generally free of all the baggages picked up during working years.

cbreeze - You make good points. I guess what I'm getting at is that while people do make "elite" contacts with priveleged people at top undergrads, there are also people who go to school at the University of Missouri who keep in touch with friends who later become a valuable professional "network" whether they open restaurant chains together, or if one person hires her friend to work at her bank.

I think outside of the super-elite industries like i-banking, there lies the other 99% of the workforce. So I suppose the article has a selection-bias because the author is ONLY encountering the students applying to Harvard whose parents (e.g. soccer-moms on Long Island) are pushing their kids. While maybe in Idaho or Oregon or Florida, parents are happy for their children to go to a state school and get whatever job interests them.